george grombacher 0:02
Eric, to get us started. Give me two truths and a lie, please,

Eric Brotman 0:05
sir, George, I know you’re good at this after having done this many times, but I think I can stump you today, but I’ve got three and I’m ready to go,

george grombacher 0:13
Yeah, well, let’s first. Let’s

Eric Brotman 0:16
I have sung on stage with a two time Grammy nominee. A two time Grammy nominee, nice. Second, I was a state champion in high school in Maryland’s state sport. And third, I studied late 18th Century romantic poetry in college.

george grombacher 0:42
Wow. These are excellent 18th century romantic poetry. Your state champion, lacrosse player, I’m assuming Maryland’s that

Eric Brotman 0:51
is not Maryland state, okay, so it probably should be, but it’s that

george grombacher 0:56
guess. All right, that’s interesting. And you sang on stage with a two time Grammy nominee, holy cow,

I don’t think that you studied romantic poetry.

Eric Brotman 1:12
I stumped you. I studied late 18th Century romantic poetry in college, partly because I loved English and partly because it made women swoon, and that was important to me at the time. So Coleridge, Wordsworth, Shelley, Byron Blake and Keats. So there’s that. I also sang on stage at Gillies in Dallas, Texas with Pat green, and sang wave on wave to a full house, which was completely awesome, which I do have on video. I was not a state champ in Maryland. State sport, which is, in fact, not lacrosse, but is jousting, jousting. And I was going to say that, but I knew you’d find it too ridiculous, so I just went with state sport. If I had said jousting, you’d have been like, All right, yeah, that’s, that’s not real, but, but yeah, that’s Maryland. State sport is jousting.

Unknown Speaker 1:58
Well done. Well done. Thank

Eric Brotman 2:00
you. Thank you. One Eric for the win. Yeah. 100%

george grombacher 2:03
All right, so if the 18th century romantic poetry didn’t make the ladies swoon, I’m sure that singing on stage with a Grammy nominee probably did, yeah,

Eric Brotman 2:12
and Charleston was not going to so therefore you can see where my brain was at least at 19.

george grombacher 2:17
So that’s pretty, pretty straightforward calculation,

Eric Brotman 2:20
really. Uh huh. Man, perfect.

george grombacher 2:24
Well Well done. Well done. Well

Unknown Speaker 2:25
done. Thank you,

george grombacher 2:26
right. Have you ever jousted?

Eric Brotman 2:28
I have done a simulated joust at the Renaissance Festival as a child where you’re going for the ring and you’re on a pommel horse and all of this nonsense. You know, it was not easy for me. Fortunately, no animals were harmed in the filming of that particular exercise, so we were good.

george grombacher 2:46
Okay, all right, right on. Well, aside from those things, yeah, what is top of mind for you right now?

Eric Brotman 2:55
You know, it’s hard to have anything top of mind other than the election and some of the political noise and geopolitical noise that we’re dealing with. So I would say top of mind right now, if there was something keeping me up at night, and I sleep pretty well, George, but if there was something keeping me up at night, it is typically government and right now the geopolitical outlook i i can’t get these 45 or 50 days or whatever it is, while we’re recording this, can’t go back. They can’t go fast enough to get this over with, so that we have some clarity and we know what’s happening. You know, I’ve reached that point where I almost don’t care anymore. I just want to know the rules, because they change so fast. And so for me, every couple of years, every four years, typically not every two, but every four. We have some of this, some of this, these unknowns. And I don’t think it has a dramatic effect on the market necessarily, but it definitely has an impact on legislation and on the psyche of the population and on all kinds of other things. And of course, we work with folks on both sides of the political spectrum, so this is not a political statement or a rooting interest. It’s just that when things are uncertain, that’s when people get uncomfortable. And so that’s sort of what’s top of mind right now.

george grombacher 4:07
Yeah, uncertainty is maybe by definition, uncomfortable, you know? Yeah, yeah. So if it’s bothering you, do you feel it’s bothering clients or have do you think that a lot of people have sort of tuned out or frustrated by it. What’s, what’s,

Eric Brotman 4:22
I think it’s bothering everyone, clients and non clients. I think, I think there’s so much noise, there’s so much rhetoric, there’s so much ugly it really didn’t have to be this way. I doubt it was. It was intended this way, although it’s probably been going on since the 1700s so maybe that’s just the nature of the beast, and we weren’t here for it, but I do think the uncertainty of all of it does cause alarm, also in the state of Maryland, because of our proximity to Washington, DC, a lot of families rely on federal jobs and other and procurement and and being being. Contractors to government agencies and all this kind of stuff. So the impact on our state is disproportionately large when there’s uncertainty. So of course, we have clients all over the country, but the local clients, particularly the closer you get to DC and the DC metro area, the more angst there can be, because sometimes that affects livelihoods. Yeah, yeah,

george grombacher 5:19
there’s no doubt. So it strikes me that you’ve got a second edition of your book coming out. Don’t retire, graduate or perhaps it’s out already. Not dissimilar from the uncertainty and the transition time between, you know, full time work and making that optional, I don’t know.

Eric Brotman 5:40
Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s harder than it looks. And, you know, I’ve been at this 30 plus years, and I’ve helped a lot of people through it, and now I’m getting to the point where I’m having those discussions with my own family about myself, and I feel it in a very different way, much like you can counsel somebody who’s going through a divorce, but unless you’ve been through it, you may not fully appreciate or understand it, or or parenthood, or the loss of a parent, or any of these kinds of things, it’s really hard to figure out who we are, if our identity is so closely tied to what we do for a living, and then one day we stop doing it, we lose our identity. And I’m trying desperately to make sure that doesn’t happen to me, as I’m trying to help make sure it doesn’t happen to other people. I think it’s really important not to retire. In the traditional sense, retirement is a retreat. It’s a withdrawal. In the UK, to retire is to go to sleep, and I’m not ready for a dirt nap. I got plenty of runway ahead of me, I hope. And so I’d sure like to do some things that will make a difference, and that means never fully retiring. I think financial independence is a fantastic goal. I think everyone should shoot for financial independence and figure out a way to get there so that work is optional. But I can’t imagine living what could be 10 or 20 or 30 years or more with daytime TV and shuffleboard. It’s just not going to happen. Yeah,

george grombacher 7:00
yeah, I can’t imagine that either. Here we are. So what are Are there different criteria or different parts of one’s life that you encourage people to be thinking about? How do you think about that, that time past full time employment?

Eric Brotman 7:20
It’s great question. And you know, anecdotally, at least, I have discovered the secrets of the happiest retirees. Note, I didn’t say the wealthiest retirees, the happiest retirees, because there’s not necessarily a correlation, but the three things that the healthy that the happiest retirees have in common, the first one is they’re debt free. They don’t owe anybody anything. And I know when we could argue all day long whether there’s good debt and bad debt, and some of it’s arbitrage, and if it’s low rate, and we could argue that all day but not owing anyone anything is a very serious, lovely albatross to lose, even if it’s favorable debt. So that’s first second is maintaining one’s health. And that’s all different kinds of health. It’s physical health, it’s mental health, it’s emotional health. And you can’t wake up one day and decide you’re just going to be healthy and expect it to go well. You have to sort of do that along the way. And the same way, you can’t decide one day I’d like to be wealthy. I think you have to do that over a lifetime. It takes good behavior and good habits. And so forming good habits at any age that include good health habits will lead to a more successful retirement outcome. And it’s certainly a happier one. And the third one, which is probably the most important, and we could debate that, but I think the most important one is you must have purpose in your life. You must have a reason to get out of bed every morning that gets you excited to get you excited to get out of bed every morning, or you will slowly stop getting out of bed in the morning, and you’ll wind up being one of those people in their pajamas two in the afternoon. It’s just not good for you. So finding purpose doesn’t have to mean working for money. I mean, there are plenty of people. There’s 80 year olds who are starting dog walking services because it allows them to have their health and something to do, and they love animals, and they make a few dollars. And it’s just a lovely story, frankly, and it helps people who don’t have a pet sitter. It doesn’t have to be for money, though. It could be that you’re very passionate about food insecurity and you want to work at a food bank, or you want to volunteer for your local your local university or your high school or your place of worship, or whatever it is. It might be that you just want to spend lots of time with grandkids, though, I caution you, the grandkids grow up, and when they do, they achieve some independence, ideally. And that means that may be great when they’re four, but harder when they’re 24 and and so I think you need a little bit more than that. But I think life can’t be a bucket list. George, it can’t be I’m going to do these 10 things I want to see Alaska and Hawaii before I die. I mean, it’s lovely go do it. But if you have a bucket list, and that’s all you have, you will check those things off and then be absolutely purposeless. And yes, you can create a new one, but I would encourage folks to have that bucket list integrated into a life. Of purpose and a life with vision. And I would never, ever, ever suggest that somebody take their LinkedIn profile and their social media profile and just say retired. That is, it might as well say deceased George, because no one’s going to say there’s somebody dynamic who I’ve got to get to know. It can say volunteer at XYZ, it could say passion, you know, cancer survivor and passionate volunteer for the American Cancer Society, whatever it is, it doesn’t have to say I’m an architect or an engineer or an astronaut, but it needs to say something that gets you excited in order to still be part of this world, this global community.

george grombacher 10:42
Are we? Are human beings hardwired to be productive, additive, industrious?

Eric Brotman 10:51
Gosh, I wish I knew the answer to that. I I think some people are. I think there’s a nature and nurture effect. I think if you, if you have some of that biologically, that’s helpful. I also think if you’ve seen your parents or adult figures in your life be industrious, you’re more likely to be that way. I think if you’re one of 10 children, there’s going to be some who are really industrious and others who aren’t. And that speaks to it being more than just biology. So I don’t know the answer. I think some people are wired that way. I’m certainly type A to a fault. And you know, my wife doesn’t want me puttering around the house for three days, much less 30 years, because I would drive her nuts because I get bored in an afternoon. And some people are just like that. And but I don’t think it’s everyone. I think we’re all different naturally, but whether it’s nature or nurture, I think growing up in an industrious environment tends to create a more industrious human I hope so, because I want my daughter to be that way. And so far so good. But it’s hard, it’s hard to say whether that’s something innate or not. I don’t know. Yeah,

george grombacher 11:57
it’s, it’s it’s interesting. And I like, I’d love the wisdom of, it’s okay to have a bucket list, but not in place of a purpose. And I wrote down journey, destination, like, in a lot of ways, Buck list just a destination, whereas 30 years of retirement, or however many years we’re fortunate to have is, without question, a journey. Well,

Eric Brotman 12:21
people spend much more time thinking about their next Disney vacation and planning that, planning a week of their lives with their kids. They spend much more time on that than planning their own retirement, their own 30 year chapter of life. It could be half of your adult life, and we spend more time thinking which, which Park we’re going to go to, and do we need the park Hopper, than we do thinking about, what am I going to do when I grow up? What am I going to, who am I going to be when I grow up? What’s going to what’s going to make my life worth living until I’m out of breath,

george grombacher 12:57
and when you’re sitting down with people or and, or you’re essentially sitting down with them as they’re reading the book, which is a cool thing. How are you helping people to discover that? Purpose is it? Do people have a hard time thinking about I’m sure some people are like, I have no idea. And other people are like, yeah, it’s clearly this.

Eric Brotman 13:17
I think people who think they know don’t actually know. And I know that there’s a lot of people say I’m going to golf every day, which is great for a while, potentially, but there’s only so many golf courses, and you only are physically able for so long in a lot of cases. And if, if that is something special, and you look forward to it, and you play two, three days a week, that’s great, but what are you doing the other days? And unless you’re going to be a golf Marshal or a caddy, and you’re going to find you know something to do every day at the course, that’s not enough. And so I think a lot of people say, Well, we’re going to travel, and I’m going to play a lot of golf, and we’re going to see the grandkids, we’re going to take it easy. That’s a vacation, not a retirement. That is, it could be a sabbatical. I mean, you can take six months and do next to nothing and just Just breathe and just realize that the pressure is off. But during that time, it’s especially helpful to say, All right, now, now, now what? What do I want to do? How do I want to make a difference, whether it’s on a small scale, how do I make a difference for my family, or whether it’s on a larger scale, I don’t make a difference for my community or the world at large. So, so I think when, when I sit down with folks, we ask a lot of questions, it’s an interview that’s very qualitative. The math, the math is going to take care of itself, right? I mean, a computer can do the math, AI can do the math. A Robo can do the math. What it can’t do is help you figure out your humanity, because it can’t do that. Someday, it might be able to, but I suspect, still not as well as a human. So I think it’s important to take the qualitative look at what’s important. We ask a lot about philanthropy. What are the causes that are important to you? What do you what vision and values do you want to leave to your children if you have them or grandchildren? If you have them, and we start sort of fleshing out the things that are more important than money. And I’ll never tell you money’s not important, but if it’s the only thing you’re working for that is a very lonely and kind of sad life,

george grombacher 15:15
agreed? Well, I think that that is a an awesome process, helping people just self discover by asking questions and asking the right questions. And earlier, we talked about how oftentimes we have to go through an experience, be it divorce, the depth of death, a loved one, to really understand it. And if a robot is never going to be a human being and have human experiences, how would they’ll be able to, how will they be able to really counsel us on having human experiences? So

Eric Brotman 15:45
I don’t know Apple. Apple has a plan. I don’t know. I I’m hopeful that that doesn’t replace the humanity in all of us. I think that would be a tragic thing for humanity. But there are certain there are certain tasks and certain things that would be lovely to outsource, but humanity is not one of them. No,

george grombacher 16:03
agreed. All right, so debt free. I’m not interested in having a conversation either about good debt or bad debt, but you you want people to or you advocate that the happiest, anecdotally, retirees are debt free, meaning no mortgage. Yeah,

Eric Brotman 16:19
no mortgage, and in some cases, they might have to have a reverse mortgage or other things, but no debt payment there. There’s when, you know, you wake up on the first of the month and you have certain responsibilities in their larger responsibilities, you know, I don’t want to see retirees with car payments. I don’t want to see them with credit card balances. Ever. I don’t see anyone with a credit card balance. Ever, student loans. I mean, it’s great to help your grandkids go to school, but if you’re taking student loans for them, I don’t know that that’s particularly healthy. It’s kind of scary when you think about it. During our working years at 30 or 40 or 50, if you need money, you can generally go make more whether it’s a side hustle, whether it’s additional hours on your job, whether it’s overtime, whether it’s whether it’s some other way, there’s a way to, even if you change employers, there’s usually a way to make more money. But once you’re fully retired, and your skills, in a lot of cases, start to become antiquated very, very quickly. You can’t go make more money, or you feel like you can’t go make more money. So it’s, it’s a different feeling, you know? And that’s true with with markets too. When when markets drop, and you’re 35 what an opportunity. You’re a buyer. Go buy the markets just gave you a sale. When there’s a sale on towels at Macy’s, there’s a line around the building at four in the morning when there’s a sale on Wall Street. People think something’s defective, but when you can’t go make more money, having principal loss is really scary, because that’s like seeing branches of your money tree chopped off. It’s not just picking fruit. And so I think we have to identify with what that feels like. And you and I don’t know what that feels like, yet, I can’t know what that feels like. I get a sense. I’ve talked to hundreds of families, but I do think the psychology of being debt free is real important when you don’t have the ability necessarily to go out and create additional abundance.

george grombacher 18:20
No doubt about it, God willing, I’ll be ready to go and hard charging when I’m 75 years old. But odds are I’ll be interested in not charging ahead full speed when I’m 75 so everything you just laid out makes a ton of sense to me. And I mean, ultimately, I think we’re all looking for peace of mind, and how great would I feel if I woke up tomorrow or I clicked my heels together today and I didn’t have those debt payments that you just described well?

Eric Brotman 18:49
So the question is, how do you make that possible sooner? What is the best strategy for you to have that experience in 11 years instead of 17? I’m making this up, but, but how do you start to visualize a finish line? I know my finish line. I know exactly when it is, and I’m literally counting it down and it and it’s it’s designed. My financial world is designed for me to hit financial independence and be debt free at the exact same moment as we’re empty nested, and then to be able to decide what what possibilities are there in our world? And that’s something that took that was by design, that’s a 35 year career, that’s not a overnight. Hey, let’s just do it. But I would urge you that if that’s an important thing to you, and none of us know how long we’re going to work, how long we’re going to be healthy. Heck, we don’t know how long we’re going to live, but having a finish line that becomes tangible, that isn’t 30 years. And I know for lots of people, a 30 year mortgage makes an enormous amount of sense. I have a 30 year mortgage, but there comes a point where being able to start. To send extra money to that feels good. That doesn’t mean don’t do other things, because you have to be on track in other ways, getting rid of a mortgage at 3% when you could be investing money and earning potentially more than that isn’t arbitrage. It’s a bad decision. So making sure that you’re also taking advantage of the 401 Ks, the Roths, the HSAs, the other personal savings and investing, it has to all work together. It can’t be myopically focused on I’ll have no mortgage, because you’ll then have a house you’re living in that you can’t really tap favorably for to spend money, and you won’t have the nest egg that you need. So it can’t be by itself, but it can be part of a larger plan.

george grombacher 20:40
Well said, Well, Eric, you’ve given us a lot of good ones, but we’re ready for your difference making tip. What do you have for

Eric Brotman 20:47
us? Difference making tip is to get an annual financial physical exam, the same as you get an annual medical physical exam. It doesn’t mean you have to hire a financial advisor to manage your money. It doesn’t mean you have to outsource all of your financial decisions in any way, shape or form, but have someone with a an objective, dispassionate, professional set of eyes give you a financial physical once a year at the very least. And don’t wait. Don’t wait until you’re 55 to do it. If you’re 38 do it now, it will make your physical at 55 a whole lot better in the same way you know, hopefully you’re not waiting to go to the dentist when one of your teeth is falling out. If you go regularly and you get checkups regularly, it’s no different than making sure your oils change before your engine blows. Get your financial physical every year and with your spouse or significant other or loved one, and really know where you are. Taking that inventory every year, taking a hard look at 30,000 feet at your entire financial picture will make a difference, and it will help you make good decisions throughout the year.

george grombacher 21:56
Well, I think that is great stuff that definitely gets that come on. Come on. As always, Eric, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. So all you people out there that say, You know what, I got plenty of time. Well, yeah, hopefully you do. But to Eric’s point, let’s just just rip the band aid off. And every little bit you spent today and and invest in checking out your financial future with a dispassionate third party is going to benefit you greatly down the road. So thank you so much for coming on the show, Eric, or coming back on the podcast. Where can people learn more about you, tell us about the book and the podcast and sure and everything else,

Eric Brotman 22:33
I will gladly do the shameless book plug. This is don’t retire graduate second edition. I made the book more timeless, so that it doesn’t have nearly as many as many facts and figures from years ago. So it’s now designed to be a timeless volume and a path to financial independence. The podcast is coming back. I’m excited. We’re going to start releasing shows again in January 2025 we’ve done five seasons. We took 18 months off to work on the book and get some other things out. And now I’m going to be interviewing guests and having fun on the podcast again, starting after the first of the year, which I’m excited about. And to learn more about all of this and about me and about our company and everything we do, go to brotmanmedia.com and you’ll find all of those resources, and they’ll link to our financial planning company, our consulting firm, the media piece, and you’ll be able to see it all in one place,

george grombacher 23:26
outstanding if you enjoyed as much as I did. So Eric, your appreciation. Share today’s show with a friend who also appreciates good ideas. Go to Brotman. Media.com it’s b, r, o, t, M, a, n. Media.com check out all things. Eric Brotman, check out the don’t retire graduate podcast. When the new season comes out in the new year, get your copy of don’t retire graduate and get on the path to becoming one of those happy retirees that Eric has been talking about. Thanks again, Eric.

Eric Brotman 23:59
Thank you. It’s

george grombacher 23:59
been a pleasure. Finally, friendly reminder, it’s never going to be anybody more interested in your financial success than you are. So as Eric’s been talking about, act accordingly. I.